that's it for us. thanks for watching. "piers morgan live" starts now. welcome to our viewers around the united states. george zimmerman's fate will soon be in the hands of six florida women. they will begin deliberations friday. will they find him guilty or not guilty of killing trayvon martin. a dram day in court punctuated by the most we've heard from the defendant himself. >> did you now have sufficient time to discuss with your attorneys whether or not you wanted to testify in this case? >> yes, your honor. >> i don't need to know what was said, but after those discussions, have you made a decision? >> yes, your honor. >> what is your decision, sir. >> after consulting with counsel, not to testify, your honor. so, he won't testify, but his defense attorney mark o'mara is talking, striking a confident turn after today's dramatic session. >> i think we have a very, very good chance with the jury right now and with the evidence as presented.

he's already given his story or statement five, six, seven times now so the jury has that, and we just decided that there was enough evidence in there that we don't need to present any more. >> were you leaning towards -- >> coming down to the wire, both sides using high drama with each holding a foam dummy and demonstrating the confrontation that ended trayvon martin's life. martin savage joins us from the courthouse. dramatic stuff with this dummy and also, seemed very significant concession by the state, over who may have been on top. >> piers, yes, another fascinating day inside the courtroom. you have to say the prosecution's case went through an evolution i support is the kindest way. clearly a change in the way the prosecution has presented what happened. john guy getting up there, demonstrating with maybe one of the strongest testimonies, this testimony coming from something

that is not alive, a dummy. he grabbed that dummy and essentially is now saying that the state is willing to concede that trayvon martin may have been on top of george zimmerman, but they didn't just give up on that. listen to his explanation, fairly dramatic. >> if this person, this mannequin, were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be in relation to me? >> would be at your left inner thigh. >> right here, right? >> yes, if he was right-handed, it would be at your left inner thigh. yes, sir. >> right, underneath my leg? >> yes, inside your leg. >> okay. were you aware the defendant described to his best friend that when he slid down, the defendant slid down, that trayvon martin was up around his armpits? were you aware of that? >> no, i haven't heard that, no, sir. >> okay. where would the gun be now? >> now the gun would be behind your left leg. >> one of the things i should

point out, that the jury found all of this fascinating. in fact, those that sit in the back row were actually on their feet leaning over watching that presentation. they took great interest in that, piers. >> seemed like a great concession, didn't it, martin, because if you believe as a jury trayvon martin was on top, you're more likely, i think, to assume the cries for help were coming from the person on the bottom? >> right, yeah. no, this clearly is a change from what we initially were told in opening arguments. whether this is the state saying all right, we may be headed for lesser charges, so this is a way to go after those is unclear. a lot of this will be made more clear tomorrow, but quite striking to see that and also, you know, mark o'mara was not to be outdone. he quickly grabbed the same dummy and jumps aboard and does his own rendition of what the defense says take place. >> and incredibly powerful it

was, too. let's turn to the tensions between judge nelson and defense attorney don west. he's not had by common consent a great trail. it got very heated today, even by their standards. >> yeah, no. these two really, their relationship i think has been dissolving since i think the first day, maybe before the first day of testimony. i think don west has been very frustrated. he was frustrated about evidence the state -- i'm sorry, that the defense was not allowed to present, and i think that that frustration just continues to grow. last night they went very late arguing over, still trying to get evidence in and today you talked about it. that showdown now between don west and don west wasn't supposed to be talking. the judge was talking to george zimmerman, but boy, it didn't go over well. listen. >> have you made a decision, sir, as to whether or not you want to testify -- >> your honor, i object to that question. >> okay. over ruled.

have you made a decision as to whether or not you want to testify in the case? >> i object to that question, i think that's -- >> over ruled. the court is entitled to inquire to mr. zimmerman's determination whether he wants to testify. >> may we have an opportunity to speak? the case isn't concluded yet. >> i understand that and i've asked mr. zimmerman if he needed more time to talk to his attorneys, and if he does, i will afford it to him. if your attorneys have finished with two witnesses before the end of the day, do you think that you would then know whether or not you want to testify? >> i'll -- on mr. zimmerman's behalf -- >> i am asking your client -- your client questions. please, mr. west. >> i object to the court inquiring of mr. zimmerman as to his decision about whether or not to testify -- >> your objection is overruled. >> that is about as close to a judicial bam as you'll get. remember last night while don west was actually talking, the judge walked out on him. they might need some counseling

when this is said and done. >> quickly, martin, what do we expect tomorrow and more importantly, can we expect the jury to go out as soon as friday, perhaps? >> we can. real quick, tomorrow they will go over in the morning is the attorneys and the judge working on instructions. these are critical, really crucial information. this is what the jury will learn about what they can charge or what they can consider here. and then after that, 1:00 in the afternoon is when closing arguments begin. it will start with the state. they will go two hours and stop, and the jury gets to go home at that particular point. they are still sequestered so they think all night about what the state said and friday morning the defense will pick up and counter that argument, but of course, the state will get the last word in and then it will go into the hands of the jury, as you say on friday. >> dramatic stuff. martin savidge, thank you very much indeed. joining me is ben crump, the attorney for the martin family, natalie jackson, co-counsel for the martin family.

ben crump, you've not been able to talk. we thought you would give testimony. that didn't happen in the end. now you are free to talk. i know you've not been heavily engaged in every day in the court, so you have a more general view. but how do you feel the case has gone? do you feel confident you have proven a case collectively that trayvon martin was murdered? >> piers, you're right, and i'm glad to be free from being sequestered so i can now talk about the case and i've been catching up throughout the day looking at different clips after it was determined the defense was not going to call me to testify. but i've said all along, piers, if the jury follows the evidence, george zimmerman will be held accountable of killing trayvon martin because nothing has changed. george zimmerman followed, profiled, made a decision to get out of his car and chase trayvon martin. the 911 tape, clearly that objective evidence says that the

young lady he was talking to on the phone clearly says that. there is nothing to contradict that. so who threw what first punch if they were struggling and rolling on the ground, well george zimmerman started this confrontation and so we can never get beyond trayvon martin just walking home and a strange malg chauz is man chasing him. doesn't trayvon martin have the right to self-defense? >> here is the problem, ben crump, is many people will have absolute sympathy, but you say chase the evidence. it seemed there was a real shift by the state case in saying look, we concede that trayvon martin was probably on top of george zimmerman. now if you're that jury and you hear that u-turn on such a crucial piece of information, regardless of what happened in the buildup, we don't know who actually may have started the fight, regardless of that you're now left with a jury that believes trayvon was on top, and

they are more likely than not to assume that the voice crying out for help is the person underneath. >> piers, it has always been our contention that there was some struggle, and if trayvon defended himself against a strange man who confronted him, he had every right to do so. but the cries for help, all of that is inconsequential when you think who started this. who was the initial aggressor? are you telling me if your child is walking home from 7-eleven and some strange man comes following him, that you don't want your child to try to defend himself when that person does not identify -- >> no, no, no, ben. my answer to you there is absolutely not. but the problem you face is florida law is very specific, and i've discussed this all week with various legal experts. it doesn't really matter what happened up to the moment they are in this confrontation. what matters is did george zimmerman genuinely believe his life is in danger?

if he did, he is allowed to use the gun by way of self-defense so pure lit letter of the law i'm talking about here, it is hard to see how the prosecution have proven that case against zimmerman. >> well, i'll clearly say to you, piers, we have to all acknowledge that if you had the dynamic turned around and you had trayvon martin kill george zimmerman, the stand your ground argument wouldn't work for trayvon martin. that's the trouble with this whole thing. it's so subjective when you think about it. i believe in my heart that based on your child being chased by a grown man with a .9 millimeter gun and we hear that 911 tape and a couple minutes later he's shot in the heart and dead, those women on the jury have children, and they have to think that this could be my child.

this could be anybody's child. and that's what is so troubling about this case and that's why so emotional, piers. people all over the country are saying, especially minority parents, what if this were my child? that's a horrible feeling to imagine your child do nothing wrong but walking home minding his business and somebody gets out of their car and chases them. >> let me turn to natalee jackson because you've been in court. you've heard all this evidence. i mean, there clearly is going to be a lot of contention over whether the case for second-degree murder has been proven. however, many people believe that there is a much more compelling argument for manslaughter or aggravated assault. could you see a situation where george zimmerman is convicted of one of those lesser charges, and would that be satisfactory if you couldn't get a murder charge against him? >> well, what is satisfactory is what the jury decides in this case. we don't have a choice in that. we don't get to vote.

i think there is a case made for both murder two and for manslaughter because manslaughter is a lesser included offense of -- i'm sorry, yeah, manslaughter is a lesser included offense of murder two. so that's why the jury will be given that option. i mean, ben crump quite rightly feels very passionate about this. many people feel very passionate about this. emotions are running very high. in the end, this jury will operate to florida law and will be directed to do so. >> yeah. >> it's very clear to me, talking to florida judges and particular judge alex and others who have great experience there, that really it all comes down to george zimmerman's state of mind when he pulled the trigger. >> it comes town to whether or not his state of mind was reasonable to the average person, so that's really the crux of it. that's what the jury will decide. were his actions reasonable? and the actions don't srt in the middle of a struggle. they start from the beginning of him getting out of the car armed with a .9 millimeter following

and running after someone who is running away from him. >> natalie and ben crump, thank you both very much indeed for joining me. >> thank you. this case will soon be in the hands of six female jurors. defense attorney and hln contributor mel robins was there. mel, it's very -- getting very heated, very emotional now, both sides now realizing this is it. reaching crunch time. the jury likely to go out as early as friday. what are you detecting, if you can, from the mood of this jury right now? >> well, today was fascinating, piers. first you had the defense witness by the last name of root who was the use of force expert. he wasn't really giving testimony. he was giving a warmup for the defense, and what was fascinating about his testimony, piers, is that he would constantly look at the jury and you know what they were doing? looking back at him. it was like watching two people have a conversation across the room at a cocktail party.

he was speaking directly to them, and they were soaking it in. but more importantly, piers, when they kind of brought out that mannequin dumb diddy thing and the attorneys were straddling. do you know what happened? the jury stood up. all five members in the back row stood straight up. the four women in the front row, they leaned forward and they were taking copious notes and really paying attention, and just as you pointed out earlier, this was a turning point in the case. the state acknowledged that trayvon was on top, and it seemed like the jury had this -- they were more alive today than i've seen them the entire trial, piers. >> there was also this extraordinary moment when the defense called a neighbor, called olivia bertalan who gave evidence about two young african-americans who intruded into her home. let's watch a clip of what she said. >> i saw two young

african-american guys ring my doorbell repeatedly. they broke into my house. i heard bangs downstairs. the dispatcher told me to grab any weapon i had. >> mel, not to put too fine a point in it, this struck me as all right they agreed not to bring race into it. this was overtly making a racial statement. this was saying, look, the reason george zimmerman was right to suspect this young black boy trayvon martin was because this white girl had been at home, and two young black youths had intimidated her and broken into her home. >> you know, actually, piers, you know, this was a risk for the defense because they had her on the stand to actually have her testify about what an amazing neighbor george zimmerman was, how he comforted her, how he checked up on her, how he brought a lock over for her, and i thought it was very risky when they did this because she obviously identified that the perps in this case were two young black guys.

and the prosecution was asleep at the wheel. they didn't hammer on this. maybe they will in close, but here is one more theory i was thinking, where is the rebuttal case? what is the prosecution doing? it seems like they are phoning it in. why don't they have ten of trayvon martin's friends coming on the stand and giving emotional testimony. that's my friend, that's my friend. i sat there in court today and thought, my gosh, regardless of how you feel, you still have the martins sitting here and it's almost as if the prosecution is just like, you know, giving up. >> i thought it was a very poor day for the prosecution, and i don't think they had a great trial. i think mark o'mara in particular for the dehanes has been extremely strong. let's take a short break, mel, stay with me. next, zimmerman's father was on the stand. how did that go over in the courtroom? that's coming up. [ male announcer ] oh, dan, checking out of the doubletree isn't the end.

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then they asked me did i recognize the voice. >> and what did you tell them? >> i told them absolutely, it's my son, george. >> is that an opinion that you still have through today? >> certainly. >> george zimmerman's father testified today saying the screams on the 911 call were that of his son.

that tape is at the center of the case. will it determine the outcome? with me again, hln contributor mel robins, tom and glenda hatchet, the host of the judge hatchet show. if you are at home and want to get involved, tweet me at piers morgan. the urban natural, said it was pivotal what ben crump said. under florida law anyone can walk through a neighborhood and get chased down. tom, an interesting point, isn't it, taking this case to a natural extension, that can happen to anybody and this could all happen again tomorrow. >> well, piers, the question is where does self-defense begin? if zimmerman chose to follow him and confront him after the police told him not to, if zimmerman chose to come after him with a deadly weapon after the homeowners association specifically forbade that kind of behavior, when does self-defense begin? i think the key to this case as far as the jury is concerned is what value they place on how things started.

if they blame zimmerman for causing this series of events, he will be convicted of something. the whole defense is that self-defense began when trayvon responded to zimmerman. they say self-defense began when trayvon ended up on top of zimmerman. and i suggested that's not when self-defense began. self-defense began when he chose to confront trayvon, and when it didn't go his way, he shot him to death. >> judge hatchet, that's a view many people have, and also say to me, look, what about trayvon martin's right to defend himself? wasn't he engaged in a form of self-defense himself, and where does his right to do that supersede george zimmerman who has a gun? >> right, i tell you, tom has just articulated so perfectly. this is a man told to stay in the car. he has a weapon. i believe he confronted him. the question is going to really become whether the prosecution has proved the case beyond a reasonable doubt. but there is no question in my

mind that he was the aggressor, and in my mind, he has lost the right to say he was self-defending himself if he is the one who's the aggressor in this situation, and you're right. trayvon also has rights in this matter. and this is a very complicated case, and it's going to be very interesting to see what the jury ends up doing with this. >> mel, i can see you shaking your head vigorously. you've been in court. why are you so aggressively anti that statement? >> first of all he wasn't told to stay in his car. he was told we don't need you to do that, sir. >> let me clarify that. let me -- >> it's true -- >> i can clarify that because i think actually exactly what happened is zimmerman had got out of his car and was trying -- >> correct. >> he said to find the street name and at that point he was asked are you following, and he said yes or whatever, and they

said we don't need you to do that, but he was actually outside the car. that's one distinction -- >> my point -- >> an important one -- >> a very important one and i stand corrected on that point. my point is had he stayed in the car, had he followed the instructions not to follow him, we would not have a dead 17-year-old, and that's the reality. >> right, and mel -- mel -- >> here is the problem. >> mel robins, that is an incontrovertible truth. that i keep coming back to. i come back to two things on this case, one is if george zimmerman had just carried on driving home, none of this would have happened. fact one. fact two, when they say he wasn't profiling trayvon martin, how else do you describe somebody who on tape tells authorities these f-ing punks, these assholes, always getting away with it. what else is he doing to trayvon martin by profiling him as a bad guy that needs to be dealt with? >> i think that's absolutely right. here is the thing and you've

nailed this, and you and i have talked about it. there is a pathway to manslaughter. if you look at the totality of george zimmerman's actions undisputed. he got out of a car. he followed a kid on a ryan knee dark night. he had a concealed weapon and didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch. but here is the reason why i was shaking my head. under the law, which you both know, you can even as the aggressor in a confrontation regain your innocence and claim self-defense successfully, and i think based on the evidence that's been presented, a jury would have a very hard time -- let me bring in tom -- let me bring in tom because what the florida legal people i've spoken to, tom, told me repeatedly is that that is the crucial thing. it doesn't really matter in terms of zimmerman getting out of the car, walking, checking street names, whatever he was doing. none of that is materially important to the law in florida, which is if zimmerman genuinely believed his life was in danger,

a lot of medical evidence that came in the last 48 hours is quite compelling that he may have been stunned and dazed by having his head banged, then he is allowed to defend himself and can use legally his gun. >> piers, i don't practice in florida but i have to believe there will be a jury instruction on causation. in other words, if you commit a crime, you have to -- there has to be a causation element proven. in other words, you have to have caused what the crime was. i have to believe these prosecutors are going to look at the jury and say, it's a florida law allows someone to profile someone, disobey police instructions, bring a deadly weapon with them, confront someone, threaten them, assault them and then when they respond, shoot them dead, is that self-defense in florida? ladies and gentlemen, you're going to decide that question. and i suspect it's not so simple. >> let's take a short break. when we come back, we'll take a closer look at the charges the jury will be allowed to consider and the sentences that they can carry if george zimmerman is found guilty.

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the gunshot, did mr. zimmerman have any other options? >> based on my knowledge and understanding of him, the environment, situation, totality of everything, i don't believe he did. >> dennis root, a so-called expert for the defense on the use of force told the jury zimmerman had no choice but to use his gun against trayvon martin. does it add up to manslaughter, murder or none of the above? >> my let me ask my guests here. tom mesereau, this is a crucial thing i think which is what directions will this jury be given in terms of the potential things they could convicton? because i think there is a general sense that second-degree murder hasn't been established beyond a reasonable doubt but manslaughter, aggravated assault and others possibly could have

been. >> well again, i don't practice in florida, but my understanding is that manslaughter and aggravated assault will be lesser included instructions that it's almost routine these kinds of instructions are given and that will give the jury various options. they will get in the jury room and pick a foreperson. they will start deliberating and work through the instructions and there may be give and take and stronger personalities may want to go one way and weaker another way and you don't know if the jury will compromise and end this thing and say we'll convict on assault. >> it makes a huge difference. >> huge difference. >> because in florida, for example, second-degree murder has 25 years to life in prison. years to life in prison. manslaughter with a gun, 10 to 30 years, aggravated assault with a gun 3 to 5 years. so judge hatchet, a very, very different range of -- >> very different range. >> facing george zimmerman there. >> florida really changed a lot about this whole bit of it being a gun involved in any of these. and what it says, basically, also if the victim is younger and as trayvon is, then the sentencing can be higher in terms of that.

the jury won't know that, and that's what is very important to point out, that the judge will instruct them. i'll be very surprised if the defense prevails because the defense doesn't want these lesser included charges. they want self-defense, and they say that will cover everything and they don't want it included because they don't want a compromised verdict on this. >> right. >> that's a real, real big battle that we'll see in the morning before the jury is instructed. >> right, mel, you see, i keep coming to this, instinctively my belief about this case is there has to be some punishment surely for george zimmerman for the fact that he found out after the event trayvon martin was unarmed. he was an unarmed kid, 17 years old with a bag of skittles on the way back to his father's house. now that we have that knowledge, surely it just isn't justice that he walks away a completely free innocent man with no punishment. >> well, it certainly seems that way and, you know, as a mother

of three kids, you know, i sit in court every day and see the martin family and it's just a terrible tragedy, but the truth of the matter is, piers, there is a two-minute window where we don't really know what happened now, do we? we really don't know whether or not trayvon looped around and confronted george and punched him and george fell to the ground or if george walked up to him and shoved him as rachel jeantel said, and when you really don't know what happened, you haven't proved what's happened beyond a reasonable doubt. without understanding that kind of initial confrontation, you got to really, really tough hill to climb in terms of being the prosecution. now the only thing that i see as a possibility here because i do believe that this jury will buy into the self-defense claim and that wipes out murder two and wipes out the aggravated assault, if you believe the self-defense. but, again, as we were just talking, if this jury of six

women, five moms, take a look at the evidence and they say by gosh, exactly what everybody is saying tonight, there is something wrong with the -- with the idea that if somebody could get out of their car, profile somebody as a perpetrator, follow them in the dark, be armed and then shoot them dead, and it's just a kid walking home to their parent's house. >> right. >> so if they see that, they could conclude that's culpable negligence they could find a guilty verdict there, and they might overlook the self-defense in that regard. >> that's why the defense is arguing so hard. they don't want those. >> absolutely, yeah. got to move on quickly, tom, to you about dzhokhar tsarnaev, the only surviving boston marathon bomber pleaded not guilty today to 30 federal charges. what do you think the rationale is behind what many view is a very surprising decision by him to say i had nothing to do with

this? >> oh, i think that this is a formal aspect of a criminal case. the defense hasn't even had a time to investigate yet, to look into his mental state, to have him properly evaluated. this is a formalistic statement i plead not guilty. it's done every single day. it's done by people who haven't committed crimes and done by people who have committed crimes. i don't read too much into it. the defense haven't had too much time to do their job, to have him evaluated. it's just beginning. >> thank you all very much indeed. coming next, more on self-defense in the zimmerman trial and how race is playing into this case. you really couldn't have come at a better time.

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zimmerman says it was self-defense and he had no choice but to use lethal force to save his life. the prosecution calls it murder. what will the jury say? david webb is the host of "the david webb show and charles is a "new york times" columnist and cnn contributor. welcome to boast you. charles, let me start with you. you wrote a lot about this case and spoke a lot about this case. we're getting to the end now. race is an inescapable huge part of this, regardless what played out in court. >> i think that that's probably true, more true in the way that people are viewing it. we don't know how much race had to do with the actual incident itself. but i think one thing that is important to always remember about discussions about bias is that you don't have to articulate biases or be aware they are within you to be operational, so that you can have -- you can think you are completely egalitarian and you

want to be that way and you can subconsciously act on biases. so what we have to keep asking ourselves is what is it about trayvon martin on that particular night that activated a threat response in george zimmerman? and if you -- you know, in order to buy his explanation of it, which is that they had had break-ins before and this was a strange person in the neighborhood, you have to believe that george zimmerman could identify in the dark at a distance anyone who lived in that apartment complex or may have been visiting. i lived on my block for 14 years and -- >> don't know who -- >> what is it? >> let me ask you, people made the point, look, there are -- in chicago over the long holiday weekend, nearly 70 people were shot, many of them young black youths shooting each other and it barely resonates on the national stage, yet here we are gripped by the zimmerman/trayvon

martin case. why has it gripped america? why is the balance so skewed toward this case and not 70 shot in chicago? >> or to trever dooley who is a black man who used a florida stand your ground law when he shot a white man, and this case is also down in florida. the fact is that when the white shooting black dynamic or white on black crime happens, it becomes a race-charged environment when the special interests get involved. for the first 7 to 11 days of this incident, there really wasn't that much coverage on many of the networks on this. this was the interest on this. and then the special interests get involved and some of the people -- well, they profit off race. they profit off pushing -- >> but let me stop you there

because although that is all true in terms of the way you described how the events played out, the reality is the reason people were so exercises was that it looked like the guy had just shot an unarmed black teenager and been allowed to go home. >> right. >> go home, you're fine. >> if it was a black man shooting a white or black on black different -- >> hard to imagine he would have been allowed to walk home. didn't know for sure but hard to imagine that. >> right, however, like the trever dooley case where he was allowed to go to work the following monday after the incident, the problem we have here is we're not talking about the incident. profiling someone isn't about race when it comes to zimmerman. we don't know what is in his heart. >> i suspect he's not a racist and he's basically a thug profiler -- >> potential -- >> he carried a gun like the cops use. he was the neighborhood watch busy body and saw a young guy in a hoodie and thought trouble. he thought a-hole, f-ing punk, they are always getting away with it. >> he was profiling a thug, on his watch commander complex. to me these are two elements if you look at it dispassionately. that should never have crossed each other's paths and that's where this begins. what happened in the two key

minutes in this incident is something that the jury will have to decide based on evidence put before them, not everyone that wants to surmise or summarize what happened but what i don't want to see out of this in a country where we have a problem of murders with black men or anyone by criminals or in any case like the trevor deal case where we have the due process being polluted by a circus brought in by outside interests, let the community, let the local law enforcement, let the process play out. >> i agree with that. charles, one of the problems is the that florida law is the florida law, the law of the state and we can huff and puff how unfair it is but the reality is this jury will be directed to follow letter of that state law. >> right. >> that means nothing to do with george zimmerman getting out of the car, walking along, being told as he's walking don't follow. none of that matters. what matters is did george zimmerman think i'm going to die? >> right. >> we don't actually know, do we? >> it's a matter of what he believes, right? to figure what he believes, you

also have to believe his story. now, in order to get to the point -- >> do you? >> well, here are the inconsistencies with that story. in order for you to believe what george zimmerman is saying, you have to believe he did not unholster or reveal that weapon right in the moment before he shot trayvon. nobody can testify to the validity of that being true. >> or against it. >> or against it. anyway, you have to believe him -- >> but charles, let me ask -- >> where has anybody directly contradicted evidentiary something in material and important that george zimmerman said, in his statements from the very next day. >> here are a courageous right? there is the idea that in his initial interview he says trayvon jumps out of some bushes and attacks hi. he does the re-enactment.

he never mentions bushes and in fact, we see the sidewalk where he is standing and trayvon is standing there are no bushes to be seen anywhere. in addition to that, george gets out with a flashlight, a small one on his key chain and larger flashlight. he says he loses track -- he starts to -- trayvon starts to run and he loses track of where he is. how can you run away and be in bushes next to me if i'm going back? there are a lot of inconsistencies with the story itself. >> okay. >> we're both bald. >> we're both bald. how do you grab a head and smash it if -- if i'm wet and it's raining outside -- >> it's a good point. >> how do i do this? >> good point. right, i was saying, you know, you're talking if you believe zimmerman's version of events, he's pretty well concussed from the beating he says he's got. he's not thinking straight. he probably fired the gun in that condition. >> there's adrenaline when you're in a fight. >> there is a war that comes with these things. we heard from all the witnesses all saying different things. so it doesn't entirely surprise me he's not completely accurate

and if you do take everything he says at face value, the question then becomes is he entitled to use his weapon in that circumstance? >> if you look at what exists as far as evidence, even the stains, bruises and you add this together, there is evidence that supports on one side the zimmerman story, who was on top, who was on the bottom? the screams have been pushed aside. those were all subjective and super news being brought in to somehow create just like profiling which was not a tool in the instrument or in the charge, but not to be use in the charge. >> screams are important in this case and the defense today got a big win because the prosecution suddenly seemed to concede that it was trayvon on top. >> right. >> i just don't think somebody on top is the one crying out help. it doesn't make sense. >> that supports the position -- >> but it's a position that the prosecution seems to have endorsed. >> there is one circumstance in which that could be true. number one, fights against the idea he unholstered the weapon while he was on the ground.

he's only person saying that. nobody has been able to corroborate that. what the prosecution was trying to do is saying it's virtually impossible to happen as he said, that trayvon would have seen a gun behind his back and zimmerman would be able town holter and move the weapon up to the chest and fire. i think that that's what the prosecution was trying to do, not necessarily change their story. >> final question, what do you think they will do? >> i have no idea. i won't -- i just don't know these jurors and don't know how they will consider the evidence, and i don't know what the instructions will be from the judge. i just can't. >> i think the prosecution has not made the case for second-degree murder. >> have they for manslaughter or aggravated assault? >> possibly down, and it depends on the instructions, but they have not made the case beyond a reasonable doubt. >> thank you both very much. the george zimmerman trial at times feeling stranger than fiction. what does the man behind "burden

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travel is calling you to hiltongreatgetaways.com. breaking news from san francisco. family members of the two victims who died in the plane crash of asiana flight 214 are arriving at the wreckage. they want to be at the site where their daughters lost their lives. back now to the george zimmerman trial, which is true-life twists and turns you expect in legal novels. scott turow has written several thrillers and he joins me now live in the chair. scott, this is the stuff of a thriller in many ways but is very much real life.

and a lot at stake here. what do you make of this trial? >> well, i look at it versus a lawyer, and the legal issues i think have been articulated pretty well on many of your programs. it looks like a classic reasonable doubt case, where it's very hard to tell what happened. people have to remember that the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what occurred. but the larger cultural significance of the case is probably where the novel and the books that would -- that will be written about this matter, that's where the heart of the matter lies and really why you've been covering it. >> here's a question that someone raised to me during the break which is that if george zimmerman hadn't had the gun on him, would he have felt empowered or courageous enough to have got out of his vehicle and to have started walking in the direction of this tall,

young, black teenager? >> right. i made the same remark to one of your producers. if you want to have conceal and carry laws, and we have them now in every state in the country, then things like this are going to happen, and they are going to happen repeatedly. because i don't care who was on the bottom in that fight. you would take out your gun and shoot because you would be afraid for your life. and, you know, if you want to have conceal and carry, then you have to face the fact that these kinds of things are going to happen. and that you're going to have an unarmed, young man at the beginning of his life losing his life. >> the problem is, they didn't actually bring stand your ground into this case in the end, although they thought about it. there are lots of cases now in florida, numerous cases now, and you've even got gang leaders using stand your ground defense to justify blowing away other gang leaders, saying my life was in imminent danger, and they

walk free. >> right. >> i mean, the thing is a total farce, isn't it? >> well, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. the other thing, when you stand back from this case, you know, you have two young men, both of whom thought in their own minds that they had good reason to be george zimmerman saw trayvon as a thug and a punk. that says a lot about the american situation that both of frightened of the other one. to trayvon he was being followed by some creepy cracker. these men, with some reason, viewed each other in this light. they profiled one another. >> how important do you think will be the fact that the jury is entirely female and five of them are mothers? >> you know, the classic

learning on this, i think that the prosecution is hoping that they see trayvon as their child, and they may. but the classic learning is that female jurors and mothers are going to think about the idea of sending zimmerman to prison for this, and that they don't tend to believe in the hard and fast application of the route without -- it could go either way. >> in terms of the performance of the two teams, i think the general consensus that i'm picking up on is that the prosecution have not been very good. the defense have been very good in part, particularly mark o'mara since he became more dominant in the sense that they have managed -- certainly today was a crucial day, i felt, to get this jury to now be thinking that trayvon was on top and may not in fact be the one that was screaming.

that in itself could tip the jury to saying that george zimmerman should be acquitted. >> well, let me just say this in defense of the prosecutors. this is a case that the local prosecutors didn't want to bring. the special prosecutor brought it. and they are bringing this case and the evidence forward to let a jury decide. and so they're letting it all hang out, and they may look bumbling, and they may look like they're contradicting themselves. but they are, you know, following a classic strategy for particularly state court prosecutors saying we're going to put it all on and let the jury make sense of it. that way they can't be blamed for not trying to show the jury everything. >> if we go to the last page of a book you had written about this case, scott, would you have guilty or not guilty? >> i don't think mr. zimmerman is going to be convicted. but i also think that doesn't answer the larger cultural questions that are involved here.

it's an unhappy situation when both men have reason to be afraid of one another. and that's where they were at in sanford, florida. you know, we still have a lot of work to do. >> scott turwo, great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed. >> thanks, piers. >> that's all for us tonight. anderson cooper starts in just a few moments.

the wheels of justice shift into overdrive. good evening again. welcome to another "360" special report, "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial." a trial racing down the home stretch, as predicted, the defense rested today. the prosecution began its rebuttal. the schedule is set for closing arguments. the prosecution asked the judge to allow jurors to consider lesser charges. the defense objected, seeking an all or nothing choice for jurors, who could get the case by friday afternoon. defense attorney mark o'mara spoke today saying the defense has what it needs to acquit in his opinion. he joins us exclusively tonight. we'll talk with one of the martin family attorneys and our legal panel. a full night ahead.